22. "Goodnight, Malaysian 370"

UNSOLVED/CONSPIRACY: Disappearance of Malaysian Airlines Flight 370

On March 8th, 2014,  227 passengers and 12 crew members boarded Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 for a 5 hour commute to Beijing, China. The aircraft departed  Kuala Lumpur International Airport at 00:42 MYT and by 01:19 MYT completely disappeared off the radar -- never to be seen or heard from again. Since then the Flight 370 disappearance has been the subject of countless newspaper articles, online discussion boards, a documentary and numerous conspiracy theories. In this 'sode, we learn about the timeline and theories as well as the people involved with and impacted by this mysterious tragedy. We also talk about the psychology behind ambiguous loss and the role of toxic masculinity in what we think is the most likely explanation behind the missing Flight 370

CW: suicide, mass death

Sources

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Theme Song Title: Creepy Mood | Artist Name: Oleg Fedak

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 1:25

Hello.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

Welcome to our first non-cult slash MK Ultra related episode, which I'm very excited about because I was over it.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

I was over it too.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Shoko really pushed me over the edge.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Yeah, Shoko was it. I was editing that and I was like, it just doesn't end.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

Me too. So I was like, I'm clearly over this by how much I've procrastinated listening to this episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Yeah, it's the same with the editing.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Yeah, you're like, oh, I know that I'm I'm really not feeling this cult vibe anymore. I'm over it. It's too much. Yeah, this is definitely like very different than that.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

It's like when you have a favorite song and you listen to it and you listen to it and you're like, I have to do it. And then it's just you get the ick. You get the ick. Yeah. I got the ick with cults.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

Yeah, I got the ick with cults too. It's like it's just too much like abuse dynamics over and over again. I think it's the same shit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

It truly is the same shit over and over. Yep. Yep. It is. And and cults persist and they still do the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

For real. Well, so what but now we're all prepared, so it's true.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

If you haven't listened, check it out. Yeah. Like five episodes starting off.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

All of which are like two hours long or more.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

It yes, if you need to pass the time for any reason.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

Cleaning road trip. Something. Background music for doing puzzles. Or not music. Talking. But before we get started on the episode, since it is Spotify wrapped season, we got our own Spotify wrapped.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

It's true. We got a Spotify wrapped this week. And I'll share some stats because they're kind of fun and exciting. So this year we were listened to in 13 countries, which is pretty cool. Our listeners were up by 100%. Our top episode is Don't Go to Lake Lanier.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

Which is cool. That one just kind of went viral. Or viral. I don't know what that means. But a lot of people listen to it.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Yeah. It just, yeah, it spiked at random times. I'm really curious to know like the how and the when and the where. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

So if you were one of the people that, like, I don't know, shared it or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Yeah, please let us know. I am curious. Also, if you got the listener personality, the adventurer, that was the top like type of listener for the podcast, which is wild. It makes sense. It does make sense. It's not watching.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

I was also adventurer. Were you adventurer? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Yes, me too. Your listeners venture out into the unknown searching for fresher podcasts and gems yet to be found. So and then we learned that we are the top 10 podcasts for 111 people, top five for 79, and then top for 21 people. So wow, who are the 21 people? I mean, probably our friends.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Yeah, that's true. That's true. Because there's definitely a lot of people who I talk to who are like, I don't listen to any podcast except for yours. Like, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Shout-outs. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

Shout outs.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

But also very cool. Shoutouts to this 111 people.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

Yeah. Love to see that angel number.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Thank you for supporting. The countries are interesting. So the US makes sense. But number two is India. Yeah. Number three is the UK. Number four is Australia. Number five is New Zealand.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

But you know, we've been doing this shit for two years. That's really nice. Yeah. Two years and a few months. So pretty cool. This is also not a Spotify raps thing, but I do notice that every time we post a new episode, one of the first downloads comes from Frankfurt.

SPEAKER_06 5:01

Yeah. And I don't know who you are.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

I don't know who you are, but shout out. Shout out to the Frankfurt listener. Thank you. That's so targeting. Yeah, it's so funny how just like people all in all the most random places listen to our podcast now. I truly just like forget about that sometimes. Or always. I always forget about it. I always just forget that I'm being perceived in a pretty strong way.

SPEAKER_06 5:29

All over the world.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

All over the world in general. I forget. I even forget that my Instagram followers are perceiving me. Sometimes I'm just posting and thinking I'm the only person who sees it.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_03 5:42

I don't know, man. I don't know. It's just like a weird brain thing where I'm just like. It tells you who's I know, I know. And I do look at it. I do look at it. I do look at it, but then it just like immediately forget. So like if someone brings it up later where they're like, oh, XYZ like posted that. And I was like, or like, oh blah blah blah. And then I'm like, how do you know that? And they're like, you posted it. And I'm like, oh, move on from that. We're gonna be talking about the disappearance of Malaysian Air Malaysia Airlines. The whole time I'm thinking Malaysian Airlines, it's actually Malaysia Airlines. Malaysia Airlines flight 370, which has been on my mind ever since it happened eight years ago, but I've never deep dove into it until I deep dove into it yesterday and today.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

So this is the biggest mystery in aviation history, which I did not know. But it makes sense when we go through the story. Basically, on March 8th, 2014, this Boeing 77, MH370, disappeared from the radar. To quote William Longavisha, who is an American author and journalist who also was a pilot for many years. I'm taking a lot of the information from today's episode from his Atlantic article that came out in 2019 about this, but to quote him, he says the mystery surrounding MH370 has been focus of a continued investigation and source of sometimes feverish public speculation. The loss devastated families on four continents. The idea that a sophisticated machine with its modern instruments and redundant communications could simply vanish seems beyond the realm of possibility. It is hard to permanently delete an email, and living off the grid is nearly unachievable even when the attempt is deliberate. A Boeing 777 is meant to be electronically accessible at all times. The disappearance of the airline has provoked a host of theories. Many are preposterous, all are given life by the fact that in this age, commercial airplanes don't just vanish. But this one really just did. So get ready. Just buckle up in your seatbelt.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

Gurjaloin.

SPEAKER_03 8:11

So most of this info is from this article and then this documentary that I watched that actually came out pretty recently. It was done by Vice, but it was bought by the History Channel, and it is called MH370 Mystery of the Lost Flight. So basically, this flight, a little info about the flight, it was carrying 239 people, two co-pilots, Captain Zahari Ahmad Shah, first officer Farik Abdul Hamid, both Malaysian, 10 crew who are all Malaysian, and 227 passengers, including five children. The flight was going from Kuala Lumpur, which is the capital of Malaysia, to Beijing. And so 153 of the passengers were Chinese, 38 were Malaysian, and the remaining passengers were from 12 other countries, including Indonesia, Australia, India, France, the US, Ukraine, Canada, New Zealand, Netherlands, Russia, and Taiwan. So this was a red-eye flight. It took off at 12:42 a.m. on March 8, 2014, from Kuala Lumpur and was traveling to Beijing. It climbed up to an altitude of 35,000 feet where it would be cruising, and it was supposed to be a five and a half hour long flight. So the first officer, Fariq Abdul Hamid, was the person that was flying, and the captain was handling the radios. And this is standard procedure because it was one of the first officers' training flights. It was actually going to be his last training flight before he was like assessed to be like a full-fledged pilot. He was 27 years old. He joined Malaysian Airlines, Malaysia. He joined Malaysia Airlines as a cadet pilot in 2007. He became second officer and then was promoted in 2010 to first officer. In 2013, he began training as first officer for Boeing 777s. And flight 370 was going to be his final training flight, and he was going to be examined on his next flight. By that point of time, he had accumulated 2,763 hours of flying experience. So he had a lot of experience. Captain Zahari Ahmad Shah was one of the most senior captains at Malaysia Airlines. He was 53 years old. He was married and had three children. He lived in a gated community, owned two houses, and he had a flight simulator in his home that he used a lot. And he often posted on online forums about it. He joined Malaysia Airlines as a cadet pilot in 1981. And after training, he received a commercial pilot's license and became second officer in 1983. He was promoted to captain of Boeing 737 in 1991. And then later in 1998, he was captain of Boeing 777. He had been a typewriting instructor, so like the person that trains since 2007. And he had a total of 18,365 hours of flying experience. So like very, very senior loss of experience as a pilot. He knows what he's doing for sure. It's like not only does he spend most of his time flying planes, he also has a flight simulator at home. So he's like, you know, spending time in his house doing that too. So I'm gonna go over the timeline of what happened. So flight takes off 12 42 a.m. About 20 minutes later, at 101 a.m., they radioed to air traffic control that they had leveled off at 35,000 feet. Keep in mind that it's not standard procedure to do this. It's the norm to report if you're leaving an altitude, not entering an altitude.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:08

And then it's a little even weirder that seven minutes later he again reports the same thing. He's like, we're cruising at 35,000 feet. So that's definitely not normal because it's like, why are you gotta say the same thing twice seven minutes later?

SPEAKER_05 12:23

No.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

Then about 10 minutes after that, at 119 a.m., they are leaving Malaysian airspace and they're entering Vietnamese airspace. So air traffic control basically like switches over. And the controller at the Kuala and Four Centers radios them and says, Malaysia 370, contact Ho Chi Minh 120 decimal nine. That's the radio frequency. Good night. So that's the norm of how they like kind of say, like, okay, we're handing over. And then Zahari is supposed to respond saying, Good night, Malaysia 370, and then repeat back the Ho Chi Minh uh radio frequency. He only says, Good night, Malaysian 370. He did not read back the frequency as he should have. And this was the last word that was ever heard from Malaysia 370. And this is like less than an hour into the flight. The pilots never checked in with Ho Chi Minh after this. Basically, two minutes after this happened, they disappear off of the radar. 39 minutes after takeoff, five seconds after they cross over into Vietnamese airspace, the symbol that represents the transponder of the plane dropped off of Malaysian air traffic control. And then the entire plane disappeared 37 seconds later. So the controller in Kuala Lumpur was dealing with like other air traffic and didn't notice. And when he did notice that it was off of the radar, he assumed that it was just like in the hands of the Vietnamese. So he just kind of was like, whatever. The Vietnamese saw that the plane crossed into their airspace and then disappeared from the radar. They were supposed to let the Kuala Lour people know immediately if the airline was more than five minutes late to check in. But instead, they just like kept trying to contact the airplane and they only let Kuala know 18 minutes later that they never checked in. So what they're supposed to say is they're supposed to say, good morning, Ho Chi Minh, Malaysia 370, but they never did that. And like basically there's like a lot of chaos that happens right after this that is just like not standard procedure. They were supposed to, they're supposed to let Malaysia Airlines know immediately if a flight goes missing, but they took an hour to let Malaysia Airlines know that the flight was missing. And in this hour, they're trying to make contact with the air aircraft. And they're also trying to contact other airlines that are in the sky that are within range of the airplane to ask them to try to contact the aircraft as well. So that's like what they're trying to do. And they're trying to do this for four hours.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Holy shit.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

And even though the Aeronautical Rescue Coordination should have been notified within an hour of this happening so that they could have an emergency response, they were not informed until five hours later at 6:32 a.m. And then the emergency search began. So initially the search was happening within the South China Sea, which is where it was assumed that the plane was between Malaysia and Vietnam. And this included 34 ships and 28 aircrafts from seven different countries. They couldn't find it like anywhere. The wild thing is also like I was watching this documentary, and they didn't tell the family members of the like who of the people on the flight that the plane was missing. Like they kept just saying the flight was delayed in in China. So it would just be like delayed, delayed further, delayed further. Oh my god. And they didn't let them know for like ages that actually the flight was missing. They kept being like, oh, it's gonna come soon, even though that was like not true at all, and they had lost it.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Which trying to quell people's concerns or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

Yeah, like maybe there's like some hope that they would like find it or something. But yeah, so that's pretty fucked up already. And you can just like you'll see like throughout this thing, like why the family members are just like so aggravated by all of the authority figures in this like case because there is just like so mismanaged, as it always is. Sure. Which sucks. But so initially they find debris and oil slick and they think that it's from the plane, but then they actually find okay, it's not actually from that aircraft, and a lot of false alarms started happening like this, where they're like finding stuff, and they're like, oh, it's from the plane, it's not so a few days later, a few days after this, they're searching at this point in the South China Sea. Um, a few days after this, they actually find out that the plane made a U-turn after like disappearing from radar in radar and went back to KL and continued straight beyond that point. And the way that they found that out is that the Malaysian Air Force had like secret radar technology that tracked it, but they didn't like let whoever know that they they had seen that because this was like secret radar technology. So they didn't let people know for like five days that they like had this data that actually showed that the plane turned around and went back and went a whole different route than it was supposed to. So this is corroborated with like primary radar, with the data that the Malaysian Air Force secret data revealed that after it initially disappeared, it turned southwest and flew back across the Malay Peninsula toward Penang. And side note, Penang is where the pilot is from, like was born. And then it flew northwest up the Strait of Malacca across the Andaman Sea where it fell out of radar range again. So then at this point, this is like five days later, they extend the search to that area. And this also suggested that it was like different than a standard hijacking or different than any incident that had ever occurred before because it didn't seem like it didn't seem like there was like, I don't know, like a fire or something that had gone wrong because someone intentionally turned the plane around and took it in a different direction. Uh-huh. Um, but they had realized they had been looking in the wrong place for the first few days, and obviously people were pissed off because the Air Force didn't share this information with them until five days later. And one of the one of the family members, her name is Grace Nothing, and she'll come up again later. She was like talking in the documentary, and she was like, the ups and downs were very difficult to deal with. We like weren't sure what was happening. If it had been hijacked, maybe I could see my mom again. Her mom was on the plane. And the government of Malaysia also kept kind of like changing the story. So then two days after that, seven days later, they actually found that like basically when the airplane is flying, it like pings to satellites just like kind of automatically. And they're known kind of like as like electronic handshakes, and they're routine connections that are sort of like whispers of communication. But like most of the stuff on the aircraft at this point, like passenger entertainment, cockpit stuff, automated maintenance reports had been switched off. So like this was the only thing that they had. But these satellite pings showed that the plane had continued to fly for six hours after it had disappeared off of initial radar, meaning that it did not crash or suffer a catastrophic event. And it's presumed that during the six hours it remained at high speed, high altitude cruising. And it did this until the last ping was at 8 11 in the morning. So it was like flying in the air until eight in the morning. Did you have a thought?

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Can the people who are driving, can they turn off their can they turn off something to make them like not traceable?

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, so all of those things had been turned off, which is why the only thing that was like then happening were these satellite pings. Okay. Because that automatically happens with like I guess an aircraft of the size. I'm not like completely.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

So that part's not a mystery. No. It's suspected to turn them off.

SPEAKER_03 20:54

They turned it off.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 20:56

So basically there were seven of these like handshakes that occurred, two which were initiated automatically by the airplane, and then five that were initiated by the satellite. There were also two satellite phone calls that went unanswered but provided just data. There were two values that they got from this data that were important. One was something that they referred to in this article as a distance value that basically provided like how far was the plane from the satellite. It doesn't give like a single location, but it gives like a range of locations it could have been that were equidistant. Um, and based on this data, they like created these like maps and they found that this arc that stretches from Central Asia in the north to basically Antarctica in the south was like this range, um, was where it crossed at like eight, eight in the morning KL time, um, qualum for time. And this points that its end location was either around Kazakhstan in the north, or if it turned south, it would be somewhere in the southern Indian Ocean. So then the second value that they got from this like satellite data, it's like called a Doppler value for some reason that I can't understand because I'm not an engineer, but it's something to do with radio frequency. And basically, this analysis determined with near certainty that it turned south and did not turn north.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Don't they use Doppler for the weather?

SPEAKER_03 22:35

Yeah, maybe. I don't know. Okay. Um, but I guess they used it for this in this case. Anyways, they did some science. They figured That's what they did. Some reminds me some engineers did some engineering.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Some math. I don't remember which one. I don't remember which episode it was, but when we were like, I don't know whatever Wi-Fi is, why are you the emotion?

SPEAKER_03 23:11

This is exactly what this is. This is not this is not my area of expertise. I'm a therapist.

SPEAKER_06 23:18

Talk to us about trauma.

SPEAKER_03 23:19

Yeah, you talk to us about trauma. We we know. Doppler value. I can't tell you.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Unsure. Unsure.

SPEAKER_03 23:28

Um, but they uh suspect that the plane may have turned south around 2 40 a.m., kind of near um Sumathra, which is the most north island of Indonesia. And then six hours later, the same data indicated that it like the plane steeply descended five times like faster than a normal descent. So that predicted that the plane then dived into the ocean, possibly like shedding parts along the way. And it also suggests that it wasn't a controlled landing and that it just like went like straight, you know. And then they, because of the speed at which it was going, they assumed that if the plane would have immediately fractured into a million pieces when it impacted the water, but they have no idea where this actually took place, and there is no physical evidence that they have found to confirm the satellite interpretations are correct. This is like all just like based on this like radio, satellite, radar data. But let me show you. So basically, yeah.

unknown 24:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:37

A is like where it's supposed to be going this way, turns around at this point, flies past, and then this is where it was last picked up on radar, and then past Thailand, above Indonesia. Mm-hmm. Above and in in between like Indonesia and Thailand. And then it's assumed that it went zoop down this way. And it could be like this is where they were searching, pretty much. Oh, just in the middle of the fucking ocean. In the middle of a fucking Indian Ocean, which let me tell you, it's the most dangerous ocean in the entire world just because of like the climate. There's just like a lot of storms that happen on it. So that also like contributes to like the search efforts because it's like just a dangerous place for like ships to be. The most amount of like shipping disasters happen within the Indian Ocean because of like how chaotic of a climate it is. It's also like I'll get into it. It's huge. It's just the fucking ocean, man. So less than a week after the disappearance, the Wall Street Journal published a report indicating that the flight was most likely like going for these six hours, because the Malaysian government had not said anything about this up until this point. And only after this article came out was the Malaysian government admitted that yes, this was probably true. Man. Okay, so then 16 days later, on the 24th of March, the Malaysian government sends a text message to the family members of people who were on the flight. They get this on a text, a mass text message. Not a text. To like 239 family members. Or family members of 239 people. Malaysia Airlines deeply regrets that we have to assume beyond a reasonable doubt that MH 370 has been lost and that none of those on board survived. As you will hear. One of the people that they interviewed in a documentary is like his wife was on the plane and she was like going on a conference. And he was like, Yeah, just like not a he literally, he was just like, it's not an SMS message, you know, like this is not the way that you should be like. And it was also way too soon for them to be like giving this information because they didn't have evidence to supposedly they did not have evidence to suggest this. But also at the time, the Malaysian regime was said to be one of the most corrupt governments in the region, and it was being very sketchy in the investigation of the flight and very unreliable. They had investigators from other countries like dispatched to Malaysia, and they also like commented on the fact that the officials were withholding information and that like you know, they searched the wrong area for like a few days, even though they knew that the flight had gone a different way because the Air Force knew that information.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

Were they involved?

SPEAKER_03 27:38

I don't know, you know, but like it also like I think a lot of this suggests that they just didn't want to make it seem like they did something wrong because Malaysia Airlines is a an airline that's owned by the government of Malaysia. So they would be the ones like culpable. Sure. You know? But you know, if they told the truth right away about like where the plane actually went, they would have searched that area for the first few days and maybe they would have found debris before it like sank or whatever, or like uh drifted, you know. Or like the black boxes might have been found. So obviously, like based on this, yeah. So then they were searching in a in an area of ocean that was actually like thousands of miles away from where they actually should have been searching, but then even like narrow parts of the ocean are just like so large. So there was this Air France flight which crashed into the Atlantic um on a flight from Rio de Janeiro in 2009, and it took them two years to find the black box, even though they knew exactly where to find it. And I think we probably talked about this in the Titanic episode, but I don't remember. It took them 70 years to find the Titanic, even though they knew exactly where it sank in the ocean. I don't think we did talk about that. So I thought they found them it took 73 years after it sank.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

They looked for it for 70 years.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

And they started immediately looking for it. But because of, you know, it was the early 1900s, so they obviously did not have like the technology that we do today. Yes, but but because of technical limitations and how like vast the North Atlantic Ocean is, American oceanographer and former Navy officer Robert D. Ballard led the first expedition in 1977, it was unsuccessful, and then in 1985, French oceanographer and the same dude again looked again using experimental, like submersible devices. And that is like when they found it. But like, yeah, it's hard to find shit in the ocean, even if you know exactly where it is, because the ocean's like so deep. Yeah, and when like planes like also like hit the ocean, they like shatter into so many places because of like how fast they're going and stuff like that, they drift and shit, and then they drift, so like, but still you should expect certain things like seats and stuff to float, which is why like that's true, yeah, and shoes, and shoes and feet right, exactly. There's like certain things that flow. I'm sorry, but no, it's not funny, but like you know, you know, the feet of it. There's things that you expect to find. It's a fucking giant ass plane, man. It's a Boeing 777. Those are like how big are these planes? It's the world's largest twin jet. Jesus. It's huge, also manufactured in fucking Seattle, man. Uh because Boeing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyways, so obviously, family friends are pissed that they're getting this text message when they also have no idea what they're basing this information on. It seemed like a premature decision. There was no evidence to support this theory. So at this point, they're just like, they don't believe the government anymore, and they're not expect ex accepting that this is the explanation. So then about a month after the initial search ends, which is what was them pretty much just like looking on the surface, and it shifts to searching like deeper parts of the ocean. So even though Malaysia was technically in charge at this point of time, they lacked a lot of like technology and like means and expertise. So the Australians actually, because it was also pretty near Australia, they took the lead in the search. The satellite data that they found pointed to the area of ocean that I showed you in that map, which is about like 1,200 miles southwest of Perth. But it was also an area that is very deep, very unexplored. So first they had to actually map out the undersea topography to like basically like figure out like what it looked like so they know where to search, like so they could have a map of it. Because they didn't have a map of this area.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Oh my god. We know nothing about the ocean.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

We don't know anything about the ocean. This is 2014, man. You know, this is not that long ago. Terrifying. Also, one of I think one of the oceanographers was quoted to say the ocean floor was lined with ridges in a blackness where light had never penetrated.

SPEAKER_06 32:15

So it's scary, man. I hate that. That gave me like the bones. I hate that so much.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

Oh man. So then six months later, in October of 2014, is when the advanced underwater search begins. And because it's a large area, it's gonna take many, many months. And this underwater area has underwater volcanoes. It has something known as the Galvin Fracture Zone, which is basically like a Grand Canyon, but like no, absolutely not. Extremely challenging, hard places to look. But they find no debris, they find no wreckage that seems like it's come from the aircraft. And usually debris, like we were just talking about, is found quickly or right away. So it was like pretty unusual in this case. Someone in the documentary quoted, I found it totally unacceptable to accept the fact that the aircraft crashed at a high speed and didn't leave an enormous amount of debris around. And yeah, like debris can like disappear and sink, but still, like he's a huge ass fucking plane. Okay, so this is a part of the story gets kind of like strange. It's very much like this is a movie, uh, if you didn't already feel that way. There's this guy, his name is Blaine Gibson, and he's in this documentary that I watched, and he just looks so you're like, who is this guy? He looks like Indiana Jones because he like wears a like hat. And he says in the documentary, I'm a lawyer, I don't practice law now. Mainly I travel the world and try to solve mysteries. Currently, I'm trying to solve the mystery of Malaysia threes.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Okay, Carmen San Diego. He's from Seattle, he would be from Seattle.

SPEAKER_03 34:03

So he was actually born in San Francisco. He's an Aries Gemini cusp.

SPEAKER_06 34:08

Why do you I always do it?

SPEAKER_03 34:11

I always do it. It's good to know it uh frames his character. Um, but he his father was the Chief Justice on the California Supreme Court. He's the only child. His father was a World War I vet.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

He had a lot of time to himself.

SPEAKER_03 34:26

A lot of time to himself. His mom was also a lawyer and an environmentalist. And I guess his mom took him on like an international trip when he was kind of young, and this was when he his spark of travel was ignited, and he decided that his goal of life was to visit all the countries in the world. Okay. But one interesting thing is like people are talking about like, how does he have all of this like money to be like traveling around the world? And I read this article written by another science journalist who writes a lot about aviation that pretty much found out from interviewing him that he actually was present in the Red Square when the Soviet Union ended. And he basically capitalized off of like newly capitalist Russia, and is how he it's assumed that he made a bunch of money by like consulting to new business owners in Russia. So he knows he's fluent in Russian and knows a lot of people in Russia because of this.

SPEAKER_04 35:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 35:27

And he's dabbled in a lot of other famous mysteries, including like he went to the jungles of Guatemala to like research the end of the Mayan civilization.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

It's not the jungles of Guatemala.

SPEAKER_03 35:39

Yeah. And then I don't know what this is, but it says the whitest shit I've ever heard. I knew you were gonna, I knew you were gonna say it. This is his life. He also, I don't know what this is, but he went to investigate the Tunguska meteor explosion in eastern Siberia. And then he also went to investigate the location of the Ark of Covenant in the mountains of Ethiopia.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

What the fuck? He's got nothing but time.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

He has a business card and it says on it adventurer, explorer, truth seeker. But yeah, he like wears this little fedora. Get the f okay. Blaine. This is Blaine. So, how is Blaine connected to Malaysian Airlines 370? Okay, so his mom passed away, and while he's like grieving his mom's death and like packing her things, he's like watching the coverage of Malaysian Airlines Fight 370 on CNN, and he got kind of like obsessed with the case. And he was also seeing that it was like not getting anywhere, and he was like, Okay, well, I gotta go help.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

He's gotta go help.

SPEAKER_03 36:49

So he sold his mom's house and then moved to Laos. And him and his business partner were like starting a restaurant there or something. And then at this point, he joins a Facebook group that's like dedicated to like Malaysian Airlines Fight 370, and he starts thinking, like, well, you know, they're not searching for debris that might wash up on beaches, so someone's gotta be doing that, right? So it's March of 2015, it's been a year since the plane went missing. Okay, and there's a one-year commemoration of the disappearance in Kuala Lumpur that's held by the loved ones of the passengers. It's supposed to be like collective grieving, but also like a way to pressure the Malaysian government to continue to provide explanation or continue investigations. Hundreds of people were present, many from China. It's kind of rough to watch this documentary, man. They have all these like videos of people like crying a lot and being super upset that the government is like lying. Obviously, you know, it's rough to watch it. It really just like it hits you in your heart. But Grace, who I mentioned earlier, her name is Grace Subdrainathan. South Indian gal. She was one of the main speakers at this event. How this connects to Blaine is that he just shows up as event uninvited. Blaine! So Grace, she's also a lawyer. She's a criminal. This is very cool, actually. When I found this out, I was like, she's a badass. She's a criminal defense lawyer that specializes in death penalty cases, which are like very, very common in Malaysia because they have intense death penalty laws. But she has been pretty much like the representative of all of the like loved ones of the Malaysian Airlines Flight 370 because she just like she's a lawyer and a public speaker, and like she was at this event and she's wearing this t-shirt that basically they have this campaign that's called like the search on campaign that's like pressurizing the government to like keep investigating and also to provide an explanation. So she talks about um her mom, the love that she felt for her mom, and how it was like really difficult after the disappearance. In the documentary, it's actually really sad. She likes it's like the last time I talked to my mom, I like told her we told each other that we loved each other, which was strange because we never actually like would do that. Like, it's not really normal in our culture, but that was the last thing that I said to her. But Blaine, like after she did this speech, like approached her and asked her whether she would accept a hug from a stranger, and she said that she would, and they became friends. And then he left this event basically being like, they're not searching coastal areas for floating debris, but I'm gonna search the coastal areas for floating debris.

SPEAKER_05 39:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 39:38

So he starts doing that at this point. The Indian Ocean hits 10,000 miles of coastline. That's a lot, that's a lot. He has absolutely no plan. He's just like, I'm just gonna go places I haven't been before, and then I'm gonna ask the villagers where things drift to the shore and go look.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 39:57

Um he has nothing but he has nothing but time. He's I'm asked all this money from like capitalist Russia or something, and then he has his like mom's inheritance. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 40:10

So July 2015, it's like uh 16 months after the plane went missing. There is a beach cleanup on the French island of reunion, and they come upon the first piece of debris that is then confirmed to be from the plane. So where's the map? Oh there it is. Oh, that's the island. So it's like far away. It's far. Yeah, it's like Costa Africa.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

But this is a projection, right?

SPEAKER_03 40:38

No, this is where they found it. This is pathway. Yes, this is a pathway. And this, I mean, also it's been 16 months, you know. So like drifts. Okay, yes, yes. Just seems like a big space. Yeah, you know, I mean, it is. So the a foreman who was like part of the beach cleanup, his name was Johnny Baig, found it, and then he like let these like radio stations know, and then they eventually determined that it was part of a Boeing 77, which they then identified it was like a part of the wing, and then they found a serial number on it that basically showed that it was from MH370. So they like confirmed that it was from that flight. In the documentary, they also talk about how the way that the flap flapperon was found meant that someone was controlling the aircraft and that it wasn't just like flying willy-nilly on its own because the flaps were down, which meant that someone did that essentially. Which is weird because this evidence says that the flight didn't enter the water at a high speed and that it entered at a low speed, although like the other satellite data kind of shows otherwise. This is like there kind of throughout all of this evidence. It's like some of this indicates this, and some of it indicates something that's completely the opposite of it, which is why this case is like so aggravating because it's like nothing points to one thing in particular. There's always like holes in the things that they're saying because there's just not enough information. But this is also the first point where they like find proof that a crash happened. So, like, you know, all the family members are like feeling like a second wave of grief because like up until this point, like there's a possibility that like their family members could be alive, but like this kind of proves that the plane did crash, so it proves death. So there's these oceanographers, one of whom is named, um, they call him Professor Chari in the documentary, but his name is Charita Patiarachi at the University of Western Australia in Perth, and then a different oceanographer, David Griffin, who works at the Government Research Center. They were consulting with the Australian Transport Safety Bureau, and they basically were like the people who are analyzing, doing this like drift analysis. David Griffin created a model that basically showed like how it could have ended up on that island of reunion. And then this helped to narrow the search area, and he also provided Blaine with other places that the debris might show up, saying that it might show up in Madagascar or Mozambique. Blaine's like, I've never been to Mozambique, so let me go to Mozambique. I've already been to Madagascar. I'm like, okay, cool. Also, though he's doing like a lot more than the Malaysian government is, so that's real. There's that. He's got kind of got a body moving energy. He's like, don't fuck with cats. Yeah, yeah. Well, I haven't seen that because what? I can't watch it because it has animals being hurt in it. I mean, they don't they don't show all that. Oh, okay. Well, maybe I'll watch that.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

They're very brief clips and you know it's easy to pass them up. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 43:55

Yeah. Okay. So it's um February of 2016. Blaine goes to Mozambique, and he is like on a coastal area. He's talking to fishermen and he's asking them, like, where would like stuff from the ocean wash up? And he's told of this like sandbank. Um, and he goes there with this boatman named Suleiman, and they're both there together, they're searching. Mostly it's just like plastic that they find. And then Suleiman's like, hey, I think I found something. And it's like this triangular piece of metal that looks like it has like a honeycomb structure, and it has the words no step on it. He's talking about it in the documentary, and he's like, I initially wouldn't have thought that this was from the plane, but I'd seen no step like on other airplanes before because it's like written on the some on some part of the airplane. He wasn't sure whether it was from Malaysian Airlines, but on their way back from the sandbank, he saw two dolphins and he like associates dolphins with his mom. So he was like, Oh, it's a sign that it's like which you know that's neither here nor there.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

You know, this man just has a bunch of unprocessed grief. He said, I'm out. Yeah, I'm gonna spend all of this energy on this Malaysian Airlines flight.

SPEAKER_03 45:23

Because I want to help these other people. With their grief. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 45:29

With gotcha blane.

SPEAKER_03 45:32

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_06 45:34

Do what you gotta do to heal.

SPEAKER_03 45:36

Exactly. Exactly. But it did end up being from Malaysian Airlines Flight 370. So that was the second piece of debris that was found.

SPEAKER_04 45:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 45:45

And then a month later, he went to Kuala Lumpur for the second year commemoration of the flight going missing. And at this point, family members, they're a fan of him. They're like, you're helping us out, you know.

SPEAKER_04 45:58

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

We appreciate it. A few months later, on the northeast shore of Madagascar, lots more pieces were found. To quote this article, there were several dozen pieces that have been identified as certain or likely from Malaysian Airlines Flight 370. And Gibson, Blaine, has been responsible for finding roughly a third of them.

SPEAKER_06 46:22

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 46:22

Yeah. That's so impressive. Yeah. Yeah. Grace at one point in the documentary was like, I was questioning it. There were so many conspiracy theories popping up that people were planting the debris and that he was pretending to find it. But she like knows him. They're like friends. They've reached out and they like do work together now. So basically, like finding debris, like it's yes, it like provides some amount of information, but like what they were trying to do with the debris is like work backwards to figure out okay, where did the plane enter the ocean based on where the debris ended up? But no one was able to work that out regardless of the debris that they found. However, what the debris and where it was found does confirm is that the satellite signal analysis was correct, that the plane was flying for six hours, and that it was not brought to an end with like control. So there were three investigations that were done that were like official investigations surrounding a Malaysian Airlines flight. The one that I've been talking about up until now is the largest, most rigorous, most expensive one that was done. And it was led by the Australians and it was an advanced underwater search effort, and the focus was locating debris to retrieve flight data and cockpit voice recorders. And within this investigation, they looked at aircraft performance, radar, satellite records, oceanic drift, statistical analysis of various things, and then physical examination of the debris that Blaine found. Also, like I mentioned before, this required like maritime operations in some of the world's roughest seas, the Indian Ocean, which is one of the most deadly in the world. Um, it counts for one quarter of like the world's water or some shit.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 48:23

Which is a lot. Um, and because of its climate, it's very susceptible to typhoons, tsunamis, storms, and accounts for like majority of shipping disasters. One cool thing is that, you know, like we talk about in like a lot other episodes, specifically the Elisa Lamb one, how there's like all these like internet sleuths, right? And like, I wouldn't say that there's internet slews that are part of this, but there's definitely like a lot of people who like tried to engage with this investigation to try to help. And so, as part of this investigation, there were volunteer engineers and scientists who actually found each other on the internet and they called themselves the independent group. And they were actually so helpful that their work was taken into account by the Australians in their investigation and they were formally thanked for the help that they provided. Wow. So internet snooze are not always bad.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

I mean, I think a lot of internet snooze are not bad at all. They do way more than love, you're right.

SPEAKER_03 49:23

I mean, like Blaine's doing a lot, Blaine's doing a lot. This independent group is doing a lot. It reminds me a little bit of like crowdsourcing, you know. For sure. And especially in this case, you require a lot of like people that know really niche specific information. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:39

I mean, it goes to show that if we really had the drive, there's so much that we could do to fucking change the world. Exactly. But anyway, it does remind me of I don't think we did, I don't think we talked about it on episode. I think we talked about it on Instagram Live, but there's like a group of volunteer scientists that are like forensic scientists and they specifically are trying to identify like bodies that don't have um like an identity signature or whatever, you know? Like they don't know who it is. Right, right, right. Jane Doe's and John Does. Yeah, yeah. Right. And that's who was able to connect the Green River Killer to some skeletons that they found, but never really tied.

SPEAKER_03 50:21

And like the reason that the Golden State killer was identified was because of a journalist who did tons of research on it, RIP to her.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

Oh damn. Her story is sad. It is sad. But I'll be gone in the dark.

SPEAKER_03 50:36

TV show slash book.

SPEAKER_02 50:37

Yes, worth reading and then worth watching the TV show.

SPEAKER_03 50:40

Exactly. Okay, so so regardless of like this massive search effort, after three years and a hundred and sixty million dollars spent, they closed the investigation after pretty much finding absolutely nothing except for this debris. And like you know, all the information I've shared up until now, they they figured all of that out, but that doesn't give anyone any information into what happened or why or where the plane actually goes. I don't know. They were just like, we spent three years doing this, we spent this much money, we don't have any more space to do this. You know, it was they were kind of just like we're done at this point.

SPEAKER_02 51:22

Okay, but okay, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 51:24

So obviously, family members are like pissed about it. Of course. So they actually continued to work with Blaine to raise awareness about like where debris might show up, and they would like go to different places to be like, hey, this is this is what like fuselage from a plane or whatever, you know, like parts of a plane look like. And if you find it, contact this person XYZ. So one of the people that was interviewed in the documentary, her name is Yakita Gonzalez, and she was the wife of someone named Patrick who was in charge of the cabin crew. It's rough to watch her interviews because she's obviously real, real, real, real sad. And when she said that they found out that the plane was probably like somewhere in the southern Indian Ocean, she was like, I just knew that he was like dead at that point because who can survive that ocean? It's rough and it's deep. And I realized I wouldn't see Patrick anymore. She actually has kept pieces of the aircraft that they've found, and she said, Patrick was my husband, he was on that plane, so whatever they find from the plane is a part of him as well.

SPEAKER_02 52:25

Damn, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_03 52:28

Oh man. Then there was um another person that they were interviewing in the documentary. He's this French dude. His name is, I'm probably not gonna pronounce it correctly, uh, Gisleon Waterloss. But he lost his wife, son, and his daughter. They were all on the plane. So the entire family was on the plane. Um, but he says, it's so this is you're like asking, like, why do they close the investigation? He said, it's a big story, it's a dirty story. At least it involves many different countries. I strongly believe the plane was shut down. Basically, like at this point, like conspiracy theories are really like going wild because the government is like being sketchy. There's like no information that's like actually conclusive. So, like, it's like a breeding ground for that. And these people are trying to find meaning and find answers. Also, Blaine was starting to worry that there was people that didn't want the plane to be found because he starts like getting death threats on the internet and via text, and he was being accused of being exploitative, being a fraud, being a Russian agent, which like connects to basically like his ties from making money in Russia, a publicity hound, like a spy, basically. The the Atlantic author interviewed him and said that he actually received tons of hate on Twitter and that he's like traumatized because of it. He one time a person called his friend when he was in Madagascar and told his friend that he wouldn't be leaving Madagascar unless it was like in a coffin. He felt like he was being followed and like photographed.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Oh no. Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_03 54:14

And so then he had the system set up where basically, like, if he would find debris, he would let like kind of like a liaison person from Malaysia know, and they would come pick up the debris and take it back to Malaysia. And in 2017, the person who was in charge of transporting debris from Madagascar to Malaysia was shot down in his car by an unknown assassin on a motorcycle who was never caught. A different, like I there was a news account about it in France that said that it may have had nothing to do with Malaysian Airlines because this guy like had ties to like other kind of like crime things, but also there's still an ongoing, like there, that's an unsolved murder, basically, of like this person who was killed while trying to transport debris. Bro, what the fuck? This is like obviously conspiracy theories are gonna come out of this because like this wild. Yes, it's wild. But because of all of that, Blaine now avoids disclosing his plans online, he avoids email, he avoids telephone, he like only uses encrypted software to communicate, and he like swaps out his SIM cards really often because he's just like really paranoid for valid reasons, you know, for valid reasons. So that's like one huge main part of the investigation that was like searching for where the fuck's this plane. There's also investigation that was happening parallel that was being done by the Malaysian police that was looking into the background of everyone who was on the plane. Makes sense. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Um, so they were doing background checks of everyone and their contacts. They from this Atlantic article, they believe that a lot of these reports still remain classified information and that a lot of the information that they found is being withheld by Malaysian investigators, mostly information regarding the captain, which I will get to later. But at the time that this investigation was happening, I already kind of talked about this. The prime minister of Malaysia was known to be very corrupt and that the press was very censored. Oftentimes, people who they identified as quote, troublemakers were would disappear or would be arrested. You know, just that kind of thing, very like autocratic government. It was also like kind of obvious that certain avenues for investigation were just like not pursued that would make Malaysia Airlines or the government look bad. There was like a whole situation which felt very racist to me, where they found out that two Iranian men boarded the flight with fake passports and they were like, they are terrorists. Okay. It actually turned out that they were just asylum seekers and students trying to go to Germany.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:04

So that was the whole thing at one point where I was like, wow, racist as fuck. They were like seeing political asylum in Germany. That investigation, they said every single passenger and crew member has been thoroughly investigated and cleared of any suspicion by the Malaysian Chinese uh investigators aided by the FBI. That is not 100% true, but I will come back to that later.

SPEAKER_02 57:26

Okay. There's so much here.

SPEAKER_03 57:28

There's so much here. There's so much here. So continuing on, after all the failed searches for the plane that happened, in January of 2018, the Malaysian government contracted this US private exploration company known as Ocean Infinity to find the plane on what's known as a no-find, no fee basis, which means that they won't get paid unless they find the plane. And so they just like do it on their own dollar. Like the Ocean Infinity company takes on all of the costs of the search, and they're not going to get paid unless they find the plane. So there's like a high incentive to find it because they wouldn't, they're not going to get paid unless they do.

SPEAKER_04 58:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 58:07

So they were initially given a 90-day deadline to search. And this is like a really, it's like a private company that has a lot of really intense technology. So they have tons of advanced underwater surveillance. Like a lot of the stuff that they have is like not manned, like submarine, like robots that go searching for stuff, kind of like what they use for a Titanic, I think, at one point. They're searching with these like unmanned robots. They have all this really intense technology. They're searching an area that's 112,000 kilometers squared. It's a large area. And they were initially given a 90-day deadline. It was then extended. 138 days later, they ended the search because they didn't find anything. And then a representative from the Malaysian government said, we cannot keep on searching for something that we cannot find. So at this point, they're also like thinking like maybe the pilot landed the flight. But that doesn't make a whole lot of sense because why the fuck would they find debris that's confirmed to be on a plane if the flight was landed? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:11

Unless I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 59:12

Unless it's like been like planted there or something, you know?

SPEAKER_02 59:14

I mean, or the water super choppy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:17

Like, did they Did parts of the plane like, you know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 59:21

I don't know. Like, I I I I am confused about the motive. Right. You know? Yeah. But like, I don't know. If they for some reason landed in the middle of the Indian Ocean and something was going on and people were killed or what have you, just leaving the plane there, would it have just fallen apart? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 59:45

I don't know. So then that what I just talked about was like the Malaysian police's like investigation. Then there was like a third official investigation that was called the accident inquiry. And the focus of that was to find out the cause. And this was like completed by a team, an international team. And it was supposed to be like of the highest of standards. It was led by a working group that the Malaysian government assembled, but it was an absolute mess from the beginning. The police and military and Malaysia hated this group. The government ministers for some reason saw it as a risk. And then the foreign specialists who were asked to help out to be a part of this group found it really, really hard to do so because they were just like facing all of this like withheld information, resistance. So there's this such a thing called like Annex. Annex 13, it is aircraft accident and incident investigation international standards, basically. Like so if something goes wrong, these are like the standards at which like investigations should occur internationally. It's tailored for investigations that happen within confident democracies, is what it says. But in countries like Malaysia that have really insecure and autocratic systems of bureaucracy. So the airline is like owned by the government, is seen as a matter of like national prestige, their like reputation as a country is kind of like tied to it. So they have a lot of like ulterior motives to like not let the truth come out because their, I guess their cut their country's ego like relies on it or whatever the fuck.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:37

A close observer of the this process said it became clear that the primary objective of the Malaysians was to make the subject just go away. From the start, there was this instinctive bias against being open and transparent. Not because they were hiding some deep, dark secret, but because they did not know where the truth really lay and they were afraid that something might come out that would be embarrassing. Were they covering up? Yes, they were covering up for the unknown. So it's not like they were covering up because they knew what happened. It was like they were covering up because they didn't know what happened, and it would make them seem like incompetent or like, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:16

I see.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:17

You know what I mean? Yeah. So this is absolutely infuriating. But July 2018, so this is more than four years after the plane has gone missing. This particular investigation ended with the accident inquiry team producing a 495-page report that was supposed to be in line with Annex 13 requirements, but mostly had just been like tons of information that was lifted from Boeing manuals about Boeing 777s. There was like nothing in the report that was of technical value because they said that the Australian publications had already done that. And literally, even though it's like almost 500 pages long, it said absolutely nothing other than the fact that like there were some failures on part of that air traffic control that they ended up blaming on the Vietnamese air traffic control. And in summary, they said they had no idea what happened. In the documentary, one of the family members was like, So, pretty much four years later, we're like excited to get this report, and there is absolutely no inf new information than what we knew, like right when the plane went missing.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:32

Um we just went on a whole journey.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:35

Right. So they say we're unable to determine with any certainty the reasons that the aircraft diverted from its original flight path, and they cleared the crew and pilot of any wrongdoing because they said there was no evidence to support. But we're gonna move on. This is not a mini sode, bro. It's it's not, but you know, here we are.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:01

Here we are.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:02

We're here. You're you're you're my uh sounding board. It's a sode. It's a sode. So now we're gonna we're gonna get into theories. So let's summarize like what we know for sure at this point. Because there's a lot of stuff that we don't know. For sure we know that the plane did not catch fire, it did not become a ghost flight, which means that like everyone on board was dead and it was just flying on its own. It was not shot down, it was not landed in some like random secret location, and it's not, it was not in the South China Seat. We also know that it was like a normal flight for the first like 40 minutes, and it disappeared two minutes after the captain said goodnight, then it turned left, turned backwards, and that the military radar showed that it was flying across northern Malaysia, turned right, went upwards, and then it disappeared off the military radar, and that it probably turned back south. We have no idea why that happened. We also know that it was intentional and it wasn't a computer glitch or like a lightning strike, a bird strike, like anything that like wasn't planned that way. And we also know that it wasn't someone took control of the plane remotely. It like happened within the cockpit of the plane. Like someone on board the plane did this. And that did this thing happen between 101 a.m. and 121 a.m. when it disappeared. The last automatic condition report that was transmitted had the fuel level, altitude, speed, all of that stuff. And it said that there was it was all normal. There was no anomalies in it. One thing that is like potentially known is that there's a likelihood that when it dropped off secondary radar, one of the pilots was either incapacitated, locked out of the cockpit, or dead. So one of the theories, it's called the hypoxia theory. And basically, hypoxia is what happens when people don't get sufficient oxygen, and you pretty much like you start to feel like you're drunk or like kind of incapacitated, and then you like eventually die because you don't have enough oxygen. And so this is a theory that like the Australian government believes happened is that it was like an accident, and that for some reason there was a failure of the pressurized system in the plane, and it resulted in hypoxia to the pilots, and then they like turned the flight around because they thought that that's what they should do, but then you know, at some point they like lost consciousness. And then, like, when you get hypoxica, you feel drunk, giddy, lightheaded. So they they said maybe whoever was flying the flight changed the flight path because he could feel like something was wrong and that that was happening. But as soon as the plane kept flying, like after the pilot went unconscious, but like that that doesn't make a lot of sense to me because if they thought that something was actually wrong, they would tell someone, right? They wouldn't turn off all of the communication and turn off all of the radar. You would want to make sure that people knew that something was wrong, if especially if you're like, you know, trying to do something like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:06

Where are the like, is there like any chance at all that they could pass out and hit the things? I I have no idea.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:13

But I feel like, dude, he's been flying like 18,000 hours or some shit, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:18

That's true, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:20

Like he knows what the fuck he's doing, and I'm sure he's been in situations that are like. Stressful before, or at least like in like trainings for situations like this. So that's I guess I'm just thinking if they're like brains are not right and they're just like still though, you know, like you would think that even if you start immediately feeling like something's off, you would let someone know. Let someone know, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like literally two minutes before he was like good night, and then they just disappear. Yes, yes. It feels so intentional, yes, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:52

And they are saying they were saying incomplete.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:54

Yeah, yeah. Multiple. Or doing things that like seemed off and not standard procedure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I'm gonna share like some stupid fucking conspiracy theories that are probably not real, and like we'll just like remember back to like the first psychedelic nightmare episode where Shane tells us about conspiracy beliefs and conspiracy theories, and how like these just like come out of situations of uncertainty because there's a lack of answers being provided by official investigators, and people are bound to make their own conclusions, even if they're not tracking with the actual evidence, like the satellite data and stuff. This author who's like from Harvard, Cass Sunstein, who is this like author of this book, Conspiracy Theories and Other Dangerous Ideas, talks about how when there's like a terrible event, people want an explanation, people are angry, people are scared, they lack a lot of like information that probably contains the truth, so then they start coming up with their own theories. And because in this case, also there's like a lot of contradictory information, the government keeps changing their story, it's obvious that they're keeping things, it's hard to just kind of dispel conspiracy theories. So in the Atlantic article, he like talks about like a couple of weird theories. Like, for example, there's this British woman named I think this is her online name, Saucy Sailoress. Oh, okay. And she is a tarot reader, okay, who travels around like South Asia in a boat with her husband and their dogs. Oh, yeah, for sure. She's British.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:36

Um really painting a picture for me.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:38

Yes. She says the night of the disappearance of the plane, they were in the Andaman Sea and she spotted what she thought was a missile. She then realizes it was a plane, and then based on no information at all, she goes, It's a suicide mission against the Chinese naval fleet. What? And then the next day, like, or whenever she finds out about the Malaysian Airlines fight, she's like, Oh yeah, that's definitely what it was. That's her theory, based on nothing other than her intuition, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:04

Why in the fuck do white women believe that they have the wisdom of the fucking universe?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:13

It's a suicide mission against a Chinese naval fleet.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:16

She came out and she said this on the internet.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:19

Yeah, saucy sailor as Saucy Sailor S.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:23

You know, sometimes you could just keep it to yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:25

Yeah, yeah. Saucy sailor as.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:28

Anyways. It costs absolutely zero dollars to just shut the fuck up. It's so infuriating because there are all these people who lost their families and she's just really coming out here with her spiritual ego to share what?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:44

Yeah. For what? They're all like literally like grieving, but like in the worst way to grieve, where you don't have any information. And she's like, I know what happened.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:54

The way that if one of my loved ones disappeared on something like this, I saw this on the internet, the way I'd go in on Saucy comment section. I oh my gosh. Like, saucy, shut the fuck up. Saucy.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:06

Anyone shut the fuck up. Maybe just tell your husband, saucy, and leave it at that. Tell your diary. Tell your diary. My god. The yeah, the ego. Like wow. Like wow. Anyways. So then there's this other, there's this person in Australia who says she found the plane on Google Earth fully intact in shallow waters, but she refuses to disclose location of where it is and is trying to crowdfund an expedition to go there. And I'm like, scam. Who is giving this person money?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:40

Who capitalizes on shit like this?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:42

If if this person found the plane on Google Earth, then obviously other people could find it on Google Earth too. You know, whatever. Some dumb shit. So other claims are that it's intact and in the Cambodian jungle, that it was seen landing in Indonesia. It f and then it obviously flew into a time warp, was abducted by aliens, was sucked into a black hole. None of these obviously have like any basis of anything other than the fact that people are just like, this is a weird story, so it's probably that did not go where I expected it to go.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:17

What did you think I was gonna say? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:19

I have no idea.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:20

And then there's one that's I guess like slightly more realistic, which is that it it was being flown to attack the American military base on Diego Garcia and got shot down.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:33

I'm unsure why it would be doing that, but I always have to come back to America. Right, yeah. Maybe it has something to do with like I feel like there's some definitely some racist shit to do here where like both of the plate plane's pilots are Muslim Malaysians, right? They're like must be terrorists.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:53

I hate it. I hate it here.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:56

Then there's like this weird online report in 2019 that said that the captain was alive in a Taiwanese hospital with ammonia. I like I don't even know who's coming up with this shit for what reason. This is really disrespectful, honestly. They've got nothing but time. Yeah, but it's so disrespectful. There's 239 people on this flight, and we always talk about how every single person has so many people attached to them in their life, right? So this was like at least hundreds of people who are grieving, and you're just like, because you have so much detachment from the actual event, you're just making up stories about it to like get attention. It's gross. Don't do that, you know. You can look into things, but like what gives you the authority to like be like, I know what happened based on what information? Just like giving people like false, weird hope, you know? Because saying things like that makes people believe that their family members are still alive somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:50

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:51

Right? This soju got me a little tipsy, so you know, that the ADHD comes out, it's like let's go on the tangent. And also, I'm angry. This is like, okay, the reason why this case also like I'm like, I gotta investigate it, and I feel tied to it. You know, I grew up in Singapore and it gave me this newfound fear of flying because of what this happened, and then months after this, the Malaysia Airlines flight was shot down from Ukraine, which was not an unsolved case, but like I literally was like, what the fuck? You know, like this is scary. People just go on, everyone's be going on planes like every single day, like it's a normal thing. You're just like, oh, I'm gonna go for a conference, oh, I'm gonna go visit someone. Five hours is like actually not that long of a flight. It's so normal. Yeah, you don't expect weird shit like this to happen. It's scary. Anyways, so after the like, I guess this like theory that the captain was alive like went viral on the internet, and then Malaysia was like super pissed about it and was like, this is not true. And then they found out that it came from a satire website. I hate it. People really need to be more critical in the things that they're leading on the internet. So, Jeff Wise, who I mentioned earlier, but maybe I didn't say his name, he's written a lot about aviation disasters and mysteries. He had a theory that, like, somehow the plane might have been reprogrammed to provide false data and that it actually went north to Kazakhstan instead of south because they knew that they would like be able to get this data later and they wanted to like throw investigators off. And he proposes that Russians might have stolen the airplane to create a distraction during the time where Crimea was being annexed. It's just super complicated. Like it's like, I just can't even like fathom that people are having this deep thinking. Like, oh, let's do this specific flight that's like doing that to distract from this like political event. Not to say, like, obviously, that couldn't happen, but it's just like, but then obviously the hole in this theory is so then why is there wreckage that's like showing up? And then Jeff Wise believes that Blaine is like an agent of the Russian government, and he's planting the debris because he's the one that finds the most of it.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:23

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:24

That's how this is a movie. That's what I said. That's what I said for real. Like, oh my god. But like, just from watching Blaine in the documentary, and this is just based on like my vibe that I get from him. I really don't think that Blaine is an agent of a Russian government. I think that he's was grieving his mom's death. He hyperfixated on this case, and he wanted to help out when he could see that like the government and other authority figures were like not doing as much as they could, and his help is really appreciated by all the family members. So there is that. Anyways, I haven't shared a lot of information about the captain because there's a lot in this theory, because this is the main theory that I think a lot of people attach to. Captain Zahari Ahmad Shah, the 53-year-old who had 18,000 plus hours of flight experience, was the main perpetrator of this event. Okay. So, evidence to back up this fact. The flight simulator that was at his house was analyzed, and they found that one of the routes that he flew in that flight simulator was exactly the route that they found that the plane actually flew. And it's a weird route. Yeah, yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. He was also the last person to speak on the radio. It's a highly unlikely route, so why would he practice it?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:56

So it suggests that it was something that he planned carefully. It was also done like about a month before the flight even happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:04

People on the documentary that were talking about it and in the article we're talking about, he was testing how much fuel would take to get there. He was seeing like where would the plane end up if it just flew for this long by itself, like this. The fucked up thing about this theory is that this theory basically implies that he kicked out his co-pilot. He said the co-pilot, for some reason, go check on the cabin. He locked him out of the cockpit. He depressurized the aircraft, which means that all of passengers, including the other co-pilot, got hypoxic and then died within the course of 15 minutes. It's like over 200 people. This is this is when I get the chills because I'm just like, oh man. It's like a giant flight of people that's just dead flying.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:54

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:55

Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah.

unknown 1:18:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:59

I hate that. Yeah. Yeah, I hate it too. An engineer who is part of that like independent group from Boulder, he says that he believes the plane climbed to 40,000 feet, which is close to its limit, basically. And that during this time, passengers would have experienced being like really pressed back into their seat, and that he believes that it was accelerated to this level so that the depressurizing would happen faster and that everyone would die quickly. And this would have been the only way to quote, subdue an unruly cabin in an airplane that was going to remain in flight for hours to come. And that the effect would have gone unnoticed, but for the sudden appearance of drop-down oxygen masks. But those oxygen masks are intended for use for 15 minutes so that the plane can descend to a point where they're not like in that high of an altitude where they need it anymore. And they are no value at all if you're just going to be cruising at 40,000 feet. So everyone in the cabin, including the crew and the co-pilot, is what is assumed, would have been incapacitated within a couple of minutes, lost consciousness, and quote, gently died without any choking or gasping for air. From this article, it's quotes the scene would have been dimly lit by the emergency lights with dead belted into the side.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:26

Why are they doing this? I don't think Louise's face.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:35

Who wrote this? Why did they do that? The guy wrote. No one asked. Nobody asked. I mean, somebody asked. Somebody asked.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:46

But people were asking, but like this image. I'm just like, bro, unnecessary. Oh my god. The way that is so haunting. No one. Yeah. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:56

It's so scary. Compared to the cabin, though, the cockpit has four pressurized oxygen masks that are linked to hours of oxygen supply. So whoever depressurized the plane would simply have to put one of those on and they would have been fine. 1.37 a.m. An automatic condition report was not sent, which means that someone turned off this like notification from the cockpit. 1.52 a.m. It passes Penang Island, which is where the pilot was born. Yes. So there's an assumption that he flew over there to kind of say goodbye to his like place of birth. And then there was a wide turn, it headed northwest. The first officer's cell phone registered with the tower below at this point, but there was no content. And then it seems like as it was flying through the Strait of Malacca, that it was being hand flown because, like, the way that it was being flown, it couldn't have been just like cruising on autopilot. And then at 222 a.m., the Air Force radar picked up the last radar ping, and it was like northwest of Penang at this point. And then at 225 a.m., it seems like the satellite box returned to life, which means that someone turned the electrical system back on. And there's an assumption that by this point everyone on the plane would have died. And that it was like being pressurized again at this point. So that whoever whoever's still alive on the plane could like do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:23

Um I'm never gonna, I'm never gonna get that out of my head.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:27

I'm sorry, I apologize. What the fuck? This is why I was that's why I said this is gonna give you chills because like it's like just like the most eerie, creepy shit to think about. Just a plane that is filled with so many people, and they're just like they didn't even know what happened. It's like a couple minutes, you know, like went to sleep. Yeah, they're just like, I'm passing out.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:48

And the person who this is saying that this pilot did that, which is like a really huge accusation to say to someone, but like it's saying that this person just like was so disconnected from it that they were just sitting in the cockpit, did all of these things, not even thinking about the fact that everyone on the plane was dead as they're doing it. We'll get to why they think that he did this, because there isn't just like a, oh, he did this without any motive at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:15

I've just never that's never been an image that I've ever conjured up in my brain ever.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:22

A lot of people are like, How could this pilot murder hundreds of people, innocent people, just because he wanted to kill himself? But there's actually precedent of this happening before on other planes, which is also just like terrifying. In 1997, there was a Silk Air captain, and Silk Air is a Singaporean airline. He disabled the black boxes of the Boeing 737 he was on and plunged the airplane into a river. 1999, there was an Egypt Airlines plane that deliberately deliberately c crashed into the sea by its co-pilot off the coast of Long Island. Everyone on board died.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:01

Oh, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:02

Um, there was another Mozambique Airlines flight with 27 people on it. Similar thing happened. And then about a year after a German wings Airbus crashed into the French Alps because of co-pilot.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:16

Are these all men? Yeah, probably.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:19

They are all men.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:20

What is it with men that makes them feel like, oh, I'm I'm I'm wanting to die, so I'm gonna externalize all of that vitriol and everyone else is. Oh my god. Like that happened on the the Aurora Bridge. Remember that story of the bus, the guy who shot the bus driver and then himself, and then the whole bus just went off the bridge. Yep. Yep. What? And then all of those school shooters who decide like what?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:50

There's something very uniquely male about this kind of self-destructive behavior. If this is what happened, which it sounds most likely, yeah. I'm just like, I'm sure he probably convinced himself that he was doing everyone a kindness.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:06

Yeah. By giving them like a and out in like a way where they didn't even have to think about it, kind of thing. Yes. Yeah. Well, so the reason why they don't they don't think that it has anything to do with the co-pilot is because he was a lot younger and he actually had recently gotten engaged to be married with another Malaysia Airlines pilot. Damn, what the f and he had no history of anything being like off about him at all. And it was his, it was gonna be his last training flight before he like became official pilot. So, like, why, you know? However, even though they said that they found nothing in their inf investigation against Captain Zahari, and I just want to preface this by saying, like, some of his coworkers and family members like completely are like, there was no way that this was him. This goes completely against his character. However, the person who did this Atlantic article did interview people that were close to him. He did not name who they were because they didn't want to be named, but he did interview people that were close to this person. By the government, he was portrayed very much as like a family man, a good pilot with like all of these like years of experience. But apparently there was stuff that was not told to the public about him. What the police report said was that the pilot in command's ability to handle stress at work was reported to be good. There was no known history of apathy, anxiety, or irritability. There were no significant changes in his lifestyle, interpersonal conflict, or family stresses. There were no behavioral signs of social isolation, changes of habit or interest. On studying the CCTV footage on the day of the flight, there was no significant behavioral changes. They said all of this stuff, but this is not actually true. A lot of people that the author of this Atlantic article spoke to said that he was often lonely and sad. That very soon before this flight happened, his wife had moved out of their house and was living in their second home. He admitted to his friends that he spent a lot of times pacing empty rooms. He was known to be a romantic, and there were rumors that he had had a relationship with someone else who was married and had three children, and that he would obsess over models that he met on the internet or just like saw their social media profiles, and he would leave like kind of like suggestive flirtatious comments on their photos. He it seemed like he was pretty detached from his like former life and that he used social media a lot and was like trying to like communicate with like women in this way on social media, and that there was a suspicion that he was clinically depressed. And like I didn't look into this, but I've heard of it before of just like how pilots are like not allowed to have therapists or something like that because they're gonna lose their job if they have therapists. Have you heard of that?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:59

Um, I haven't for pilots, but I know that like for like I don't know, the military, any job in the military, if there's any suggestion that you might need a therapist, they'll tell you that you have to.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:14

And he's like been in this job for years, like 30 years, oh like almost. So important. And he lives in Malaysia, which is like a very like conservative country. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a man.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:27

It just feels really dumb to me. I'm like, what how does this make any sense? You would rather just you would rather just like pretend that people are chilling and just they don't go to therapy. Yeah, then they kill a whole group of people.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:42

Oh good. And then he flew this flight route on his flight simulator. And it's just interesting that the Malaysian investigators just like dismissed that. And they were talking about how, like, if this was a country that like actually wanted to find the truth, like maybe they would have like actually portrayed what they found in this light. But because of the corrupt nature of the Malaysian government at the time, the omission of evidence kind of like makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:13

I mean, it would imply that they hired and sustained this person who clearly was not right.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:19

And Malaysia Airlines is uh an airline that's run by the government of Malaysia, so they will. Would be the ones that are culpable for this. And actually, I was talking to my dad about it on the phone yesterday, and he said that like the family members never received like insurance money from the plane ever either, which is like which they would have had to do if like evidence like this, like they officially found it, right? You know, like they're trying to like avoid culpability so that they can avoid like financial damages being paid and shit. But there was like one thing about like some people were saying how, like, well, there was all of these other flight routes that he did on it as well. And it was just like a hobby of his that he like was on this flight simulator. So that's not obvious evidence that he did this. However, of all of the profiles of like flight routes that did, this one, the one that matched the path, was the only one that he didn't run as a continuous flight, which meant that he would like take off with it, let the flight play out, but then he also would advance it manually at multiple stages. He would like try different things with it. He was like playing around with it a lot more than he played around with other roots, meaning that this particular route meant something more. And he was trying to practice something with it or like see what happened with it more than the other um routes that he was like playing with. Basically, they said in the article, given that there was nothing technical that Zahari could have learned by rehearsing the act on a game like Microsoft Consumer Product, this person suspects that the purpose of the simulator flight may have been to leave a breadcrumb trail to say goodbye. So also it was like a way, like a suicide note in some way of being like, I did this kind of thing. That's a that's like a theory and assumption. But there's like no note that he left, so there's no way of knowing the reasoning if it was actually true. The author of the Atlantic article also met with one of his lifelong friends who was also captain of Boeing 777. And he did not name himself because he like didn't want to get in trouble, but he said that even though he did not want to believe that this was true, he did believe that he was guilty. Um, and that he believed that he would have probably just told the first officer to go check something in the cabin and that he would have locked him out. He said Zahari's marriage was bad. In the past, he slept with some of the flight attendants, and so what we all do. What? All right.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:49

I don't know why that's unnecessary.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:51

And so what we all do.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:53

You're flying all over the world with these beautiful girls in the back. What's what's the relevance here? But his wife knew. So then he decides to kill a plane of like 200 people, but he says that his emotional state was like not good at the point where he was flying the plane. But all of this info is absent from the official report.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:17

And that seems intentional.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:19

He either was like alive till the end or he could have depressurized the plane again. There is like some analysis that shows that, like we talked about earlier, that the plane was unmanned because the way that it dived into the ocean, it didn't seem like it was manned, but there's also other evidence that shows that it was still being controlled when it like I think it could go either way, you know? Like either way, he's not alive anymore.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:44

It says in the article, either way, some way along this, like the the area that I showed you on that map, after the engines failed from lack of fuel, the airplane entered a vicious spiral dive with descent rates that ultimately may have exceeded 15,000 feet a minute. We know that the descent rate, as well as from Blaine Gibson's shattered debris, that the airplane disintegrated into confetti when it hit the water. One more evidence piece that is the latest evidence, because it came out in 2021, and it's very interesting, actually, and I think it it connects to this theory, is from Dr. Malcolm Brenner, who's a human performance specialist. What does that mean? He likes analyzes speech to pick up on things like a heart rate monitor would pick up that we wouldn't pick up with our ears. So they actually played out the recording and the documentary a couple of times, and you can hear like a slight amount of stress in the captain's voice. But like we when I mentioned in the beginning how he firstly said how they reached 35,000 feet when he didn't need to say that. You know? And then the computer analysis of the speech found that there was a significant difference from the like first statement to the final statement in terms of speaking rate to like how fast he was speaking. And if you listen to it, you can kind of hear, oh, he's speaking faster too. Like my friend was over and she was like, Oh, he's speaking faster in that second one. And he's speaking faster in that last message than he is in any of the previous messages. And the last thing he said was goodnight. Last thing that he says goodnight, Malaysia Airlines 370. That's the last thing they ever heard from the plane. Chills. The combination of speaking fast and making errors like he did suggest that he was distracted, stressed, something else was happening, and it adds weight that the captain was somehow involved. This theory talks about like, oh, a hijacker could have come into the cockpit. There's there's not there's stuff about that theory though, where it's like the cockpit is like electrically bolted and surveilled by video feed. And if a hijacker was able to come in, they would still have had like some way to quickly inform someone that that had happened. There's a possibility that hijackers were invited into the cockpit, but still there could be like some signal indicating that the pilots were not okay. That was not happened, and there was like no distress signal that ever happened. There's also a theory of like possible stowaways, but like hijacking and like terrorism, usually terrorist groups take accountability for that because it's for a specific purpose. Right. And no one has ever taken accountability for this. Right. So, like, what what is the purpose? You know, and an anonymity is not consistent with like terrorist motives because they're doing it for a specific purpose.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:54

To evoke a sense of terror.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:55

Yeah, from them specifically. Yeah. And no one ever took responsibility for this. So that doesn't track. But also, like, there's people saying Zahari is not a violent man, he's been flying for all of these years, he's not confrontational.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:10

All of this was very passive, though.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:11

Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, he's someone who has spent so much of his life in a cockpit, he can dissociate from the fact that he's doing any of the stuff that he's doing. Yeah. It's very, very passive. Some some like people are saying, I don't think Zahari has to do this. They they interviewed his sister in the documentary, and she's just like, she says his nickname was Ari. He's a generous man, he has a passion for life for family. I want the world to know he's a loving man who will stop at nothing to render help when it's needed. It's for your rough to have to come to terms with the fact that someone in your family did something like that, you know? Yeah. Like, how are you gonna and and like you said, it's just like a very passive act. Like you don't have to confront what you're doing at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:55

At all. You don't have to look at it. And then it sounds like depressurizing the cabin. Like it's like pressing a button. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:02

So it's kind of like, you know, we talk about being in the military and engaging in violent acts. Like you can be so detached from it.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:09

Yeah. I'm also thinking about how like suicide is often a very impulsive act. Um not always, clearly, there is a plan, but like, you know, when you're talking about the bridge or things where people are like jumping in front of things, those are very impulsive moments. Maybe they didn't plan for that. Yeah. And like people who survive, typically they'll tell you when I was falling, I realized I didn't want to die. And so, like, had this person been given the space to consider the act and the aftermath, yeah, there would be a different, he would feel differently about it. Yeah. But in the moment, it was really easy to impulsively do that. Just press button.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:51

Yeah. And then it's just like, it's done. So what are you gonna do at that point?

SPEAKER_02 1:37:54

Yeah, and they're like, he was not aggressive. That wasn't aggressive. And I'm sure, like I said, I think he probably told himself this was the kindest way to let them go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:02

Yeah. Yeah. And he was probably like, this was the chillest way he could die too, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:38:07

Doing what he loved, and then also And then he's like, it's definitely just gonna be like a mystery because the plane is going to fall into the ocean in a part where it's really hard to find. That I I think that's the part of it that like makes everyone just like really like, what the fuck? Because like they've have found so little parts of the plane. And like, where is the plane? But we talked about that earlier. It's hard to find shit in the ocean, it's deep as fuck. Uh in the area where there's no light? Yeah. No light has ever hit. And it it was like bam, it probably fit and flew into so many different pieces, you know. Also, and now it's been 14 years, those bodies are definitely decomposed. There's none of those bodies left.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:49

And probably parts of the plane. Remember because we we talked about the Titanic being like disintegrating because of the bacteria? Yes. At that, like at that deep in the ocean.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:01

So it's not implausible.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:03

No, it's not implausible at all. Because, like we said, I think in the Titanic episode, the ocean is very like unknown.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:10

And like he doesn't have to leave his family with the legacy of suicide. There's no confirmation that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:15

So it's just unknown. So that's that's the most likely theory. Some of his family members and people that they interviewed in the documentary like totally don't agree with that.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:25

The Malaysia police and the Australian government say that it was like the hypoxia theory, that it was an accident. But that, you know, we talked about how that doesn't really like track. Hey everyone, this is Akshi. I am recording this while editing this episode about a month after we recorded, and I don't normally do this, but in typical unpacking the eerie fashion, a couple weeks after we recorded the episode, an article came out that said that they found new debris from the airplane, and I just felt like it was necessary to include that here so that y'all are up to date. So the new piece of debris, known as a trunan door, was found in the possession of a Madagascan fisherman who had been keeping it in his yard, and his wife had been using it as a washing board. He had no idea what it was, but it was linked to the Malaysia Airlines flight. And this piece of debris suggested that the landing gear was down when the aircraft hit the ocean, and it's actually the first piece of material evidence that suggests that one of the pilots intended to destroy the aircraft. A fresh report published by Blaine Gibson and Richard Godfrey, who's a British engineer, says, quote, the level of damage with fractures on all sides and the extreme force of the penetration right through the debris item led to the conclusion that the end of the flight was in a high-speed dive designed to ensure the aircraft broke up into as many pieces as possible. The crash of MH 370 was anything but a soft landing on the ocean. Another quote from this independent article states: the realistic possibility that the landing gear was lowered shows both an active pilot and an attempt to ensure the plane sank as fast as possible after impact. The combination of the high-speed impact designed to break up the aircraft and the extended landing gear designed to sink the aircraft as fast as possible, both show a clear intent to hide evidence of the crash. So you can see why I wanted to include that information following this theory, and you can do with that what you like, but I think it's wild that this info came out just right after we recorded this episode. Hopefully, more stuff will keep coming out and there will be a continued effort to search for the plane. Okay, back to the episode. All in all, though, this is like such a sad tragedy. You know, so many people passed away. Grace talks about in the documentary, she says, Can you even begin to grieve when you don't even know what happened? I talk about my mom in the present tense. I refer to her as missing. And then there's this other person who's a sister of a passenger who said, I don't think there's any words to say how much I miss Kathy. I have a massive hole in my heart that no one can ever fill. And I was thinking about this and I learned about this term called ambiguous loss. And it's basically like a theory. I read this article that was about how to work with clients who have experienced ambiguous loss, and they used Malaysian Airlines as an example, saying that it was like people didn't know what happened to their family members. So it's a large-scale situation of ambiguous loss. And the definition of it is that it's a loss for which there is no verification or clarity, and thus it carries the impossibility of resolution. There's two types. In this case, it's physical absence with psychological presence, so there's no proof of death or permanent loss. Families call this gone, but not for sure, leaving without saying goodbye. And the second type, which is not applicable in this case, is psychological absence with physical presence. So that's a result of like a cognitive impairment.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:39

I think about that a lot about how grief is kind of siloed into like one kind of grief. Somebody died and that's it. But I think about how I don't know, grief is a response to any kind of loss or any type of potential that was never met. And so, like, yes, if you lose someone to addiction, and then their brain is permanently altered for the rest of their lives, you lost them. It feels like a death. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:03

And you know, losing like or traumatic brain injury. Traumatic brain injury is part of that. And I mean, like, breakups are part of that also, whether it be like with friends or romantic partners, and we don't know how to deal with that either.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:19

That's true. Is that ambiguous though? Well, I guess so.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:22

It is ambiguous because the person is still technically present but they're not present in your life.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:28

And but that's it's not listed in this one, but it's like one thing that I think of when I think of grief. But then depression is listed here. Interestingly, homesickness and immigration is also like listed here because it's like, you know, that is ambiguous grief because it's like grief as to like your identity in some way, you know, your connection to like a homeland.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:51

I mean I feel like that totally ties into some bigger conversation about how white supremacy causes mass displacement, mass grief, mass like dislocation from self and culture and community. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:06

For me, I feel like these, yeah, that all of these fall under ambiguous loss, but the the type two, which is the psychological absence, which is what we're talking about right now, is its whole own thing. Yes. That is tied to so many other things that is like very different than like someone going missing, for example, you know, which is like the type one is what we're talking about. That right. Someone going missing as it is related to like an event like the Malaysian Airlines, but also as it relates to war, natural disasters, kidnapping. But also has incarceration, immigration as part of that too. You know, like someone moving to a different country, you never get to see them again because they don't can't afford to travel that way or are undocumented. Someone going to prison. It says, yeah, it literally says work relocation, military deployment, young adults leaving home, which is like emptiness.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:59

Oh man. Or I'm also wondering about like the state of um political polarization. Not that not that people haven't had all of these beliefs or whatever their whole lives, or you know, or I guess what I'm referring to is like when 2020 happened, when 2016 happened, there was like a really gigantic shift in the way people were relating to each other, and they were like particularly white people, honestly, but they were unable to put politics aside, like that that can't be like table talk. Yeah. All of a sudden it became table talk. Yeah. And then the way that people became so polarized and people lost family members.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:44

I mean, all of this just like falls under very complicated grief. But I like if you think back in time, complicated grief is happening all of the time, and like no nobody knows how to deal with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:58

In like a way that is healthy because we all live under capitalism where we're just expected to continuously keep going and take no breaks, take no time or space to process things, to keep it.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:10

Mass unprocessed grief. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:12

Which keeps you stuck in a which is why also the government here is like, oh, we're so tied to like our reputation that we don't want to tell people the truth. We want to keep things a secret, and we just want to be done with this. We want to be done with this and keep going forward, even though there's all of these family members who are like, you need to give me an answer of what the fuck happened.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:34

Yeah. Damn. Okay, one more thing, I guess, in connection to because I was trying to like uh knead my thoughts together with the ambiguous loss. Ambiguous loss, like losing people to political polarization. I guess I'm thinking a lot about I have friends who are like, I don't know what happened. My parents are like super trumpety. They're that arguably not part of type two also.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:03

100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:04

Yeah. Um, and they won't get their COVID vaccines and I refuse to visit them because I can't have that on me. Yeah. And so I don't know, maybe relationships that were already a little rocky to begin with have like completely severed because of this really intense conspiracy-based thinking that people have fallen into and can't seem to get out of.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:32

Yeah. I mean, I think there's just fear. It's yeah, it's fear, it's anger, and it's like unprocessed fear and anger.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:40

And uncertainty.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:42

Exactly. And uncertainty, which is all present in this one case we're talking about. So there's no support, you know. Especially when you're like living under like such uh, I don't know, like conservative political environments where there's like no space for you to talk about your mental health issues without losing your whole like livelihood or identity. Yeah. And this person's entire identity was that he was like this pilot.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:17

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:18

He was doing it for so many years. He's literally like spending his free time sitting in the fight simulator, and he's spending his other free time trying to chat up the internet models. Why is it always these people who are having some really intense love issues that do this shit? They feel so isolated and alone.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:40

It's because we socialize men to be emotionally incompetent and they just want to find mommies. Yeah, and when women then he no no longer had a mommy, had no longer had someone take care of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:55

He experienced ambiguous loss because his wife moved out. Sure. And his three kids were grown and moved out, and they're listing that as one of the ambiguous loss things, and he just like you know, he lost a lot of that, and it seems like his a lot of his identity was tied to being a family man.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:12

Yeah, well, he probably was like, I have no purpose now. But also, men don't have friends, yeah. Men don't have friends, and men don't have emotional like intelligence, and they don't have the spaciousness or the wherewithal to self-reflect because we don't give them the tools to do that. And then especially like Asian men. Oh my god, yes. Yeah, what the fuck? And then I think what happens is they only, if they confide in anyone, they confide to the only woman that's in their life, which is their romantic partner. And so when that leaves, it's not just like a partner that leaves, it's their purpose to live, it's their emotional support, it's their like care, like caretaker, all the things. And I'm just like their only close their best friend, their sexual companion. So many things. So many things. I don't know. I was like on the internet and someone was like saying, I want you to ask like your average dude when they say they miss their ex. Do they miss their ex or do they mix miss what their ex was able to provide? For them.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:25

Like what are the things? And then usually they'll respond with, Well, she took really good care of me, or she, you know, made me feel like a better person. Or you know, there are all these things that are like, I miss them because of what they were able to provide for me and make me feel about myself. Yeah. It's never like I miss who they were.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:47

And and why is it that all of those roles fall upon this one person? It's because we live in a society that that does that. And maybe we should figure out how to parse out those roles. It's the patriarchy. My gosh. My gosh. It's trash. Anyways, back to ambiguous loss.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:10

Just like tangent. Shame on men. Yeah. Coming back to ambiguous loss.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:15

I'm a little so jus drunk, but I just realized that we like there's only like one episode where we like drank otherwise. So I was like, oh whatever. I'm gonna drink in this one because it's like less violent than the other ones. It's just like passively violent versus like actively violent.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:36

Yes, it's it's it's still violent.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:39

Man. But Ambiguous Loss Psychology Tangent, coined by Pauline Bose. This is interesting because this ties to this, what we were just talking about. It was coined in the 1970s by her when she was a grad student at University of Wisconsin-Madison. And she was doing research about she was participating in systemic family therapy, and she noticed how fathers would constantly be absent during family therapy because they believed that family therapy was a mother's business. And she initially coined this term as it related to absent fathers.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:16

This makes so much fucking sense. The man tangent connects.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:23

Exactly. Exactly. She did research on families of military men who were missing during the Vietnam War. But basically, her her like her boss was like, you need to make this more inclusive. You can't just make this about absent fathers, probably because he was a dude.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:38

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:40

So then she made it more inclusive to be like what it is today, which is what I already explained. This connects. But it started out as being her noticing that fathers were consistently absent during family therapy because they believed that it wasn't their role to be present during that.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:59

And not just the fathers who leave, the fathers who are present in the family. No, they're present. They can show up.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:04

They were just like, this is not my job. This is my wife's job. My job is to be a working man, whatever. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:13

Wow, I hate it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:15

What goes on in their fucking brains, man? I don't fucking know.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:19

What goes on in there? I want to know. So daddies are the issue.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:24

It's the daddy issues again. We're back to it. Moving forward from there, Pauline has written many articles about ambiguous loss, and she's created guidelines for therapy and intervention. And she talks about how when people have experienced ambiguous loss, when you're working with them as a therapist, you gotta focus on building resilience and teaching people how to like live with the uncertainty, basically, like both and thinking, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:54

And she provides these like guidelines, which is finding meaning, adjusting mastery, reconstructing identity, normalizing ambivalence, revising attachment, and discovering new hope. Those are like the six guidelines to working with clients who have ambius loss. And I'm not gonna go into depth of all of those, but like she's written a lot about it. So especially if you're like a therapist or a counselor, like definitely check it out. Um, or if you like have experienced this yourself, which I think probably a lot of people have. Yeah, maybe everybody. Maybe everybody. And then the like complicated thing about this kind of loss is that people are left to construct their own meaning because there's this paradox of absence and presence, you know, in both cases. It's like in type one, it's like maybe they're still alive and maybe they're somewhere, and maybe one day I'll reconnect with them because that has happened, you know, in the case of missing people, especially. And then in type two, it's like the person is actually here, but they're like emotionally or psychologically absent. So, like, how do I live with that? And especially with type one, it makes it very confusing in terms of like roles because people think, is this person ever gonna come back? Should we keep their roles open until we know for sure? Am I still married to my spouse if they've been missing for a lot of years, or am I able to move on from that? Am I a wife or am I a widow? Confusing. Am I still the child if the person who is my parent is missing? Am I still a parent if my child is missing? The boundaries within like it's talking about boundaries with within family therapy, which is like very much a thing within family therapy, but like the boundaries get like very confusing and unclear when like a case of ambiguous loss in terms of type one is present. And then this leads to predicting symptoms of depression and family conflict. That's what the research has shown. That ambiguous loss leads to increases of depression and increases of family conflict within family systems because of that. It makes sense, yeah. Because it causes a high degree of boundary ambiguity among family members, both within individuals and within the family system. She talks about in this article, which I'll reference in the sources, how it's different from grief because people experiencing ambiguous loss are in states of limbo and they don't know. So they can't logically resolve the loss that they've experienced because the ambiguity won't allow it. Especially with physical ambiguous losses, it's not clear what needs to be grieved. Like I said before, is the missing loved one gone for good? Are we grieving a permanent loss? Are we grieving the fact that we are missing developmental milestones in the life of the missing person as well as our own? Um, our life feels like it's put on hold. Yes. Some people feel say that they feel guilty if they grieve before there's a certainty of death. And others are criticized for acting as though it's a loss because they're not sure that someone has died. So it feels like they're just like frozen in this limbo. Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah. And obviously, all of these family members feel this way because the government is not giving them any information one way or the other, or they're going very wishy-washy about it. And then, so there's that. Last thing I'll share is kind of just like latest updates about the case. Official investigations have ended. In 2018, there was an event that Grace and Blaine were present at, as well as the transport minister of Malaysia. Apparently, the transport minister was miserable to the point of being angry. He barely spoke and took no questions from the press. And Grace was so angry at his attitude. Rightly so. She said over dinner, she insisted that the government should not be allowed to walk away so easily. She said, they did not follow protocol, they did not follow procedure. I think it's appalling. More could have been done as a result of the inaction of the Air Force of all the parties involved in the first hour who didn't follow protocol. We are stuck like this now. Every one of them breached protocol one time, multiple times. Every single person who had some form of responsibility at the time did not do what he was supposed to do to varying degrees of severity. Maybe in isolation, some might not seem so bad. But when you look at it as a whole, every one of them contributed 100% to the fact that the airplane has not been found. And this just reminded me of the Titanic because it was like, you know, a combination of bad events.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:39

And a combination of a lot of people doing things wrong.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:44

And then tons of people dying and grieving because of that. At least in the case of the Titanic, they know exactly what happened. You know. In this case, they have no idea. They they can only speculate. And in the article, they talked about how maybe the black box will be recovered, maybe the cockpick voice recorder might be recovered. But like, even if they are, what extra information is it actually gonna provide? Like, unless the person was actually speaking while all of this was happening, like could have just been silence, you know, or like alarms going off. Yeah. In the article, he says, important answers don't lie in the ocean, but on land in Malaysia, he believes the Malaysian police know more than they're saying. Which, like, sure, you know? In March 2022, a British aerospace engineer came up with this like new way of tracking that was called like whisper technology. I'm not even gonna go into the science of that because it's like really, really new science and that data hasn't been verified, but it narrows the search area even more because it pinpoints like an exact location of where the plane could have crashed. And Ocean Infinity, the private search group, said that they would do another search for a no-find, no fee basis, but they would only do it if the government agreed to it, and the government has to authorize it. And if they authorize it, they'll do it next year or in 2024. But Malaysian government hasn't authorized it yet. So basically, in conclusion, lots of things that we don't know, lots of things we do know. I think having talked about this, there's like certain things that seem more likely than others, but it overall it just like kind of remains a mystery based on the evidence that we have.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:31

Damn, that shit's so fucking sad.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:34

I know, it's really sad. It's really, really sad. It's really, really sad because it really is it could have been avoided in so many ways. Yeah. Starting with toxic masculinity.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:44

But I also like want to name that like the tendency for me to go down this rabbit hole of like men are just incompetent, da-da-da-da-da. They don't have any emotional intelligence, they don't know how to self-reflect, they don't do it. Also, like I feel like is a slippery slope into denying accountability, like implying that like men are incapable of transformation, they are incapable of doing these things, and that's not what I mean. What I mean is we actively socialize men to be this way, and it's dangerous to both like to everybody. It's the most dangerous thing in the fucking world. Yeah. Honestly, I I think everyone is capable of transformation. I I believe that wholeheartedly. And I wish that more people were invested in the self-work to do that. Um and I wish we lived in a society that made accountability possible and even desired.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:34

If we're assuming that like it was a captain that like engaged in this way, that he was like, you know, I'm not okay, so I'm gonna take a leave of absence from work until I figure this out. Because I don't think it is safe for people to fly with me in charge.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:51

Yeah. There's that, or steps before that, like what needed to happen.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:56

Or if like, you know, people noticing.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:58

Yes, people noticing.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:00

His coworkers noticing and saying something to him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:03

His partnership being more balanced, yeah, probably. Yeah. Assuming all the things that we know. And I'm just like, you know, people are like, oh, well, he was so gentle, he was not violent, he wouldn't do all these things. I'm sure all of those things are true, and also. And also. We're socializing men in this way. So if stoicism is the pinnacle of masculinity, then it requires that young boys actively fight against the very human desire and need to connect with yourself, to fundamentally disconnect from yourself. And when you fundamentally disconnect from yourself, you're also disconnecting yourself from others. And so empathy is really impossible when we are so far removed from our own basic humanity and we socialize men especially to be this way. So it makes sense that they're able to engage in acts like this because we've spent years systematically taking away the ability to connect to other people as a fundamental part of what it means to be a man.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:04

Yeah. And that's what I was saying.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:06

Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that. Yeah. I want I wanted to end this on a good note. Oh. But the good note to end it on is just to check out Pauline's articles about how to work with ambiguous loss. And I feel like she has a lot of good work that she's done about it. And she's done work with people who have lost people with went in line 11 and things further than that. It's just like it's a it's a whole thing on its own. And the family members of the people that were lost on Malaysian Airlines Flight 370 are still working together their campaign to keep figuring out what happened and like ask the government to actually provide real information with this. So, like, you know, there's that too. And you know, regardless of Blaine and his like silliness, he helped out a lot in like finding information in this case. So shoutouts to Blaine, silly Blaine. Shout out shout outs to Grace. Like, this the documentary I watched was pretty solid. I would say check that out. This Atlantic article was really solid. There's a lot of people who have contributed to this much more than the people who are actually responsible for contributing to it. And it's like, like Shayna said earlier, really amazing to see what happens when people come together with their combined knowledge to figure stuff out. And I truly believe that like before me and you die, we'll figure out what happened with this plane because like enough people are invested in this case for that to happen. And it really sucks and it's really scary and it's very sad. And like sending my love to all the souls that were lost and all the families that lost people on this plane. But yeah. But we've been recording for two and a half hours now. So it's not a mini classic. Classic. It's not a mini sode, it's just a sode. I did, I feel like I did do less research on it than on other ones, though.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:13

So like And I I mean that you did all of the research when I would have normally split it up. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:19

So like, yeah, but I mean there's stuff that I didn't go into too, like all the science-y stuff. There was a lot of science-y stuff that I was like, this is too complicated for me. I'm not an engineer.

SPEAKER_06 2:06:31

We're just gonna leave it to the side.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:33

I'm gonna leave it to the scientists. I I know my niche, and this is not my niche. And the US laws, however, that's my niche. Even though this was sad in its own right, this was so much less dark than all the cult stuff. So yes, less actively. Exactly. Less actively violent, still very, very eerie, very eerie. And trash. I will never lose the image of that in the sky.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:09

Me neither. Thanks. Thanks for that. What the fuck? I'm still thinking about who the fuck wrote that. For what? Did they have this image floating in their head? They were like, I can't do this alone. Yeah. So now it's a good idea.

SPEAKER_03 2:07:19

William Longa Visha wrote that.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:22

Okay, William.

SPEAKER_03 2:07:23

American author journalist who is also a professional airplane pilot.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:27

Okay, William. No one asked. No one asked for this vivid ass image.

SPEAKER_03 2:07:32

Like, what the fuck? Of a planeful. I'm not even gonna say it again. No, that shit is floating in my head now. Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:40

It's haunting me.

SPEAKER_03 2:07:41

Haunting. Anyways. Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:44

Thanks for sharing.

SPEAKER_03 2:07:45

Hope y'all take care of yourselves. Yes. And yeah, feel free to look into this more if you're so inclined. And keep following it because I'm sure more information will continue to come out about it. One day maybe we'll know the exact truth, but I highly doubt that actually. So no, we gotta make it exactly. Just like Pauline wants us to. Okay. Peace out. Bye. Bye.